Super Stars second wave titles "leaked"

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wiley207
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Postby wiley207 » Sat May 15, 2010 6:15 pm

David Gerstein wrote:I'm going to stop you right there.
You're creating a new urban legend from scratch—by presuming, with no evidence, that Warner's deal with Capitol must have been the same as Hanna-Barbera's deal.

So Hanna-Barbera's deal didn't involve video (or other "new media") rights to the music cues? Maybe Warner's deal did.

Anyway, unless we know for sure, it's playing with fire to claim that Warner doesn't have the rights to do something. Let's not convince them, huh?


Well, Warner did release the Hanna-Barbera DVDs... and besides, they got lucky with the "Huckleberry Hound" and "Yogi Bear" sets. Nickelodeon/Viacom also obviously have/had no trouble with the music rights when it comes to Associated Production Music, as "Spongebob" and "Ren & Stimpy" use stock music library cues for roughly 90% of the background music ("Ren & Stimpy" even used some of the Seely stuff, obviously as a joke to contrast with the images on screen). So maybe things have softened up in recent years.

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Postby Fibber Fox » Sat May 15, 2010 7:10 pm

David Gerstein wrote:So Hanna-Barbera's deal didn't involve video (or other "new media") rights to the music cues? Maybe Warner's deal did.


Somehow, I don't think the two sides worked out DVD clearance in 1958. Still, it is altogether possible other contract provisions could have been worked out at the time.

Warners' deal would likely be different than H-B's anyway because it involved theatrical release, meaning a different rate was applied judging by contracts I've seen for production library use.

David Gerstein wrote:Anyway, unless we know for sure, it's playing with fire to claim that Warner doesn't have the rights to do something. Let's not convince them, huh?


Well, Wiley did qualify it with "may." And I'm sure a post on a message board won't "convince" anyone of anything. Entertainment corporations have batteries of lawyers which routinely check clearance and other rights things. They don't need message boards to tell them to do their jobs.

wiley207 wrote:Well, Warner did release the Hanna-Barbera DVDs... and besides, they got lucky with the "Huckleberry Hound" and "Yogi Bear" sets.


I suspect DBJ can address the concept of "luck" in this matter. I'd think there'd be more to it than that.

To be honest, none of the remaining Seely Six would make my list of "I really want these cartoons". Pre-Hysterical Hare is an embarrassment. Daffysleftfoot has posted a list with some I'd buy today if they were restored and on DVD.

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Postby Greg Method » Sat May 15, 2010 8:05 pm

Mike wrote:At the risk of sounding dumb, what "post-1953 limitations" are you talking about?

It's convoluted, but to sum-up: Warner Bros. currently only wants to restore films that were produced in widescreen, so the only Looney Tunes shorts that are going to get the restoration treatment are those that were released since 1953 because those were at least framed for widescreen projection.
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speedy fast
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Postby speedy fast » Sat May 15, 2010 9:18 pm

wiley207 wrote: Just pray we don't wind up getting a redubbed version of "Pre-hysterical Hare" with a fake synth orchestral track and Billy West replacing the Mel Blanc voices. :p


At least Billy West can do Elmer Fudd's voice well, compared to the voice we got in that short...:p

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Postby David Gerstein » Sat May 15, 2010 11:54 pm

Fibber Fox wrote:Somehow, I don't think the two sides worked out DVD clearance in 1958. Still, it is altogether possible other contract provisions could have been worked out at the time.
And that's what I imagined.
Entertainment corporations have batteries of lawyers which routinely check clearance and other rights things. They don't need message boards to tell them to do their jobs.
Hm. I really have seen some cases of big corporations relying on message board "experts"—usually to avoid the cost of paying their lawyers (because message board advice comes for free).
We, the public, suffered every time as a result. No need for that.
To be honest, none of the remaining Seely Six would make my list of "I really want these cartoons". Pre-Hysterical Hare is an embarrassment.
Agreed totally! As I said of some other late-era cartoon recently—it, and its ilk, are the kind of cartoons that give non-cartoon fans the idea that "cartoons are for kids" (read: for dummies, as there's never a high opinion of kids involved here).
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J. J. Hunsecker
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Postby J. J. Hunsecker » Sun May 16, 2010 12:00 am

Fibber Fox wrote:Somehow, I don't think the two sides worked out DVD clearance in 1958. Still, it is altogether possible other contract provisions could have been worked out at the time.

Warners' deal would likely be different than H-B's anyway because it involved theatrical release, meaning a different rate was applied judging by contracts I've seen for production library use.

Well, some contracts were written with future sales in mind, including whatever new technology might come along. Disney's contract with singer Peggy Lee included the provision that Disney would retain the rights to Lee's voice and music from the film for use on radio, television and "all other improvements and devices which are now or hereafter may be used." Peggy Lee sued Disney, and won her lawsuit, in 1991 over the VHS cassette release of Lady and the Tramp. The contract she signed in 1952 said she retained all rights for phonographic recordings and transcriptions. She claimed this meant any copy of her work, including the then released videotape, too.

http://www.peggylee.com/library/910219.html

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Postby Fibber Fox » Sun May 16, 2010 12:37 pm

J. J. Hunsecker wrote:Well, some contracts were written with future sales in mind, including whatever new technology might come along.


Wonderful, J.J. Thanks for digging up this bit of history. Interesting such a clause would have been included.

F. Fox

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Daws Butler Jr.
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Postby Daws Butler Jr. » Sun May 16, 2010 1:15 pm

Fibber Fox wrote:I suspect DBJ can address the concept of "luck" in this matter. I'd think there'd be more to it than that.

To be honest, none of the remaining Seely Six would make my list of "I really want these cartoons". Pre-Hysterical Hare is an embarrassment. Daffysleftfoot has posted a list with some I'd buy today if they were restored and on DVD.

F. Fox
http://yowpyowp.blogspot.com


The "luck" was that things have changed with the library since "Huck" and "Yogi" were released. Until very recently, Capitol still controlled the Seely-Loose cues. Now they don't anymore. The "Quick Draw" series uses more Shaindlin, Green and Cadkin-Bluestone cues than Seely-Loose. Cinemusic controls most of the Shaindlin cues and last I knew, Philip Green's widow controlled his. However, fifteen years ago, she was very ill, so I doubt she's still alive, which means, his cues have probably passed to other heirs or may be in limbo. That could be one of the sticking points. The Cadkin-Bluestone cues are controlled by Carlin Production Music, meaning that's one more entity that must be bargained with.

As far as the Looney Tunes, others have already pointed out that being those were theatrical, they could have had a different arrangement with the music libraries than the TV studios would have made. They've also run endlessly on television, so there's that deal, too.

Of course, this is all speculation, other than I am 100% sure that music rights sank the Quick Draw release.
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Postby Woody Woodpecker » Sun May 16, 2010 1:24 pm

Daws Butler Jr. wrote:Of course, this is all speculation, other than I am 100% sure that music rights sank the Quick Draw release.


If I remember correctly I do remember hearing about Quick Draw music issue but do you know if anything have been worked out since it got originally pulled from being relesead?
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Postby Fibber Fox » Sun May 16, 2010 3:57 pm

Daws Butler Jr. wrote: The Cadkin-Bluestone cues are controlled by Carlin Production Music, meaning that's one more entity that must be bargained with.


That's where the Green cues ended up, probably within the last two years. Whether their rights are exclusive or limited, I don't know.

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